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atlantaguy
I usually read questions answered by Wizard of Odds. Although, he always uses math to prove house edge against many various casino games, I have not encountered him proving how much of a house edge the casino/online casino has in poker with rake being taken out of each hand. If you could please explain the house edge and how difficult it is to overcome in a 1-2NL game, max buy $300, 10% rake up to 4$ max with 1$ being taken out for Bad Beat Jackpot. Also if you have time try to explain the house edge for online poker as well which has a 5% rake up to $3.00. I want to know how big of an edge you need against other players to even overcome the rake and at what stakes will the rake not become important at all?
DJTeddyBear
Casino vs Online Poker at the CardsChat.com Online Poker Forum - Which you thin is best in winning into a big bank roll on the long run. In poker, the rake is how the casino or poker site makes money. Following a pre-set schedule, a portion of the pot is taken out at the conclusion of certain hands and set aside for the poker room. Almost all casinos follow the “no flop, no drop” rule which means only hands that reach post-flop are eligible to be raked.
The reason it's never been calculated is because term 'House Edge' does not apply to poker rakes.
Online poker rake is a commission that the casino makes from poker games. This commission helps the online casinos pay for software, casino personnel, and providing facilities. Rake is taken from each hand played as payment to the casino for running the game. Poker Rake How to Calculate the Rake in Poker. The rake in poker is what the casino takes for allowing you to play in their game. Typically the rake is 10% of every pot up to a maximum of $3.00. In a live casino you re also going to tip the dealer $1 - 2 per pot, which for general purposes should also be included in your rake computations.
The house edge in other games is easily calculated, and means the expected amount that the house will win. Of course, because of variance, the house could lose on any particular day, but over time, it will win the edge. In poker, there is no variance. The house always merely takes the rake. There is no way to calculate how high a pot will grow to come up with an estimated percentage that the house wins. Suffice to say, in poker, the house always wins, a relatively fixed amount, regardless of the stakes or the play.
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FleaStiff
I'm not going to yack about house edge, hold and rake .. the best thing to do is to sample the rake at 'bricks' casinos and then compare that rake to the 'clicks' casinos. If there is a substantially higher rake then its probably a fatal one.
minnesotajoe
Atlantaguy,
When people say, 'It is impossible to beat the rake at 1-2nL (or 3-6 FL) ' they mean that the amount taken by the House is so high compared to the sizes of the pots. In a game with a 10% rake up to 5$ max the average rake per hands averages to 3.50$.. Whether a pot is 50$ or 5,000$ they only taking 5$ rake.. but there are the chops, 14$ pots, 20$ pots, etc etc You say your casino has 4$ max plus 1$ promo Lets round the number down significantly to 3$ per hand being taken from each pot. If average dealer deals 30 hands per hour (which is not superior) That is 90$ taken off the table per hour. That is EXTREME LOWBALLING. and with ZERO dealer tokes. And lets say the game is juicy. where basically every pot is over 50$ which does happen. You are looking at closer to 150$ per hour If your poker room sits 9 handed.. Everybody buys in for 200$.. even at 100$ per hour rake. which is extremely low. every two hours. an entire stack is taken off the table
atlantaguy
Exactly, so if a stack comes off the table every 2 hours then I think poker at stakes of 1-2NL are probably unbeatable and -EV in the long run. Just like any other casino game, you might win a few stacks here and there but in the long run due to the high rake, you will have the rake edge against you. I also believe that your edge against other players today are much less than what they were maybe 5-7 years ago. Sure poker is a game of skill but only if you are playing poker vs other players and not have the house keep taking a substantial amount off the table each hand. To many people or recreational players it might seem small, only $4 per hand, but given 9 people buy in for $200, after 14-18 hours of play everyone has lost every chip to the house and tipping.
So my main question is, due to these rake structures, is it better for someone to just play other casino games with low house edge compared to sitting down with $200 at a 1-2NL or even low stakes FL games? My guess is that it's probably better to play other low house edge games in the long run than 1-2NL.
TheNightfly
A 1/2 game is certainly beatable with a rake of 10% to $5. You can't expect to make more than about $30/hr but that's a pretty decent income. Any house game will ALWAYS have an edge so there is no comparison. The better players will win money if they play their game but table selection and money management are extremely important as well, along with many other factors.
atlantaguy
A 1/2 game is certainly beatable with a rake of 10% to $5. You can't expect to make more than about $30/hr but that's a pretty decent income. Any house game will ALWAYS have an edge so there is no comparison. The better players will win money if they play their game but table selection and money management are extremely important as well, along with many other factors.
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If it’s a low card, it’s worth holding your 18, because they will need to receive a further card which increases the possibility of going bust.Pair of 8sThese should always be split, and the logic is simple. It would certainly represent a risk because 18 is a good hand, but it can often be beaten, which means you need to analyse what the dealers face up card is. However, it’s not always as easy as that.Here we will look at all the pairs and advise you the best course of action to take.Pair of 9sDeciding on 9s is tricky. If it’s a high card you may be more inclined to split, given the chance that one card could beat you. Blackjack what does split mean.
An example I thought of is this, given 30 hands an hour. Lets say you are given 5 opportunites to make money off of a hand vs another opponent per hour. So after 2 hours that is 10 opportunities. Lets say you have a 60/40 edge on your opponent in the long run. So to make the example easy, lets say you win 6 of the hands and lose 4 of them. Given they are a medium sized pot, you both commit 30$ of your stack to the pot on average. So the 6 hands that you win, you win $30 off of your opponent. However, its $30 - $4 - $1 BBJ - $1 toke/tip to the dealer. So your net gain would be $24.00 You do $24x6= $144.00. The 4 hands you lose you lose $30. So you lose $120.00. 144-120 = 24/ 2 hour = $12.00/hour. However that is given that your opponent is bad enough so that you have the 60/40 edge. If your edge is in the single digits vs most of the opponents at the table, your net gain would be either single dollars/ hour or break even. If you don't have an edge, you are toast. I am saying all of this because, in the past year everytime I have been at a 1-2NL table, I have noticed that the players are getting better and better every year. They don't just donk off their money and they don't fall for traps or check raises as often.
TheNightfly
If you're assuming heads-up play then you might have a point but you've likely got at least 6 or more opponents. With that in mind, your 60/40 win/loss ratio now has a different end result. You can only lose what you put into the pot in any one hand but you can win 3 or more times that amount when to take it down. This doesn't even include blind stealing and bluffed pots.
I said $30 would be at the high end long term in a 1/2 game but it's a decent living. Being a poker pro very seldom means being on TV in a high stakes ring game or on the final table of a multi-million dollar tournament. Being a poker pro means (for most of us) grinding out a living day in and day out and doing your best to stomach the swings. If you're not making at least $30 an hour at the tables then you're probably not going to survive and most people at your table are only there to pass the time and have some fun anyway. If you want to make a living at 1/2 it's out there.
P90
Best Online Poker Casino
My guess is that it's probably better to play other low house edge games in the long run than 1-2NL.
Low HA games are still losers. At poker you can win if you're good enough. Or do you mean as entertainment? 1-2NL at $90 rake per hour with 9 players average (any less than a near-full table is murder if rake is not reduced) will cost you $10/hour. You stand to win, perfect case, up to $1,600 (scooping everything). Likely gain/loss is doubling your stack at +$200 or losing it at -$200. $10 blackjack at 0.5% HA and 100 hph will cost you $0.05*100=$5/hr. If you win all the hands, you stand to gain $1,000. Likely gain/loss (1SD) is +$102 or -$112. About double at 2SD. So: * Poker at lowest limits is about twice more expensive for you than blackjack. * As an average player, you stand to gain or lose about half as much in blackjack. The difference comes if you skill is not average. Skilled blackjack players are mistreated and banned, while skilled poker players earn a measure of respect. As your poker skill increases, if it gets into the top 1%, you'll be able to progress to higher limits. If your blackjack skill gets into the top 1%, you'll have to hide really well or complain about how you were banned.
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If you're like a lot of poker players who will be at the World Series of Poker this summer, you'll be seeking out the cash games not only at the Rio All-Suite Hotel and Casino, but elsewhere in Las Vegas, too.
I thought it would be worthwhile to give players an idea of what to expect with regard to both the rake and comps offered at other Las Vegas cash rooms. I've put all of this information together in one chart below for your easy review when you go to Las Vegas. This way, you'll know the rooms that give you the best value while you play, showing you where you'll pay the least and earn the most.
Most casual players pay little or no attention to the cost of playing poker. But there is a cost, as we serious players know. It's called the 'rake' — the amount that the house takes out of every pot. Sometimes the rake is the difference between a player winning or losing money in a public poker room.
The lowest rake in Las Vegas at this time is $3 maximum per pot, while the highest is $5 maximum.
Not all rooms rake the same amount. The lowest rake in Las Vegas at this time is $3 maximum per pot, while the highest is $5 maximum.
Similarly, many rooms offer players compensation for playing poker in their casino. It's generally not nearly as much as they offer to players who want to play 'house advantage' games like blackjack, slots or craps. But it can add up, with some rooms paying considerably more in 'comps' than others.
Some poker rooms offer nothing at all to players, while others offer as much as $2 per hour. Most pay around $1 an hour or thereabouts.
At face value, it might seem like the rake and comps are too insignificant to make much of a difference. But think about this. A room that charges a $5 maximum rake is charging 25 percent more than a room that charges a $4 maximum rake. Similarly, a room that gives players $2 an hour in comps is paying 100 percent more than a room that pays only $1 an hour to its players.
Some practices regarding the rake are fairly standard from room to room. All rooms take out the rake at roughly 10 percent increments. Nearly all follow the rule that there is no rake if the betting ends before the flop (a.k.a., the 'no flop, no drop' rule).
In the chart below, I refer to the maximum or cap on the rake. Meanwhile the comps refer to the amount per hour that a player earns that can usually be used on hotel rooms, beverages and food. Some places also allow comps to be spent on other casino merchandise.
Keep in mind that just as rooms change the games they spread, they also change their rake and comps from time to time. If you want to be certain about the most current information about each room, I suggest you check with them directly beforehand.
One other note about the rake. Most rooms offer bad beat jackpots and/or other promotions. These promotions are nearly always paid for by the players with additional 'jackpot drops.' Though this money is returned to the players, it still comes out of the pot, and it may reasonably be considered additional rake by some.
I am not considering these jackpot drops when listing the maximum rake below, since promotions and drops change too frequently for me to be sure what will be in place when you play. That's something else to keep in mind, though, as you choose where you want to go play when venturing outside the Rio this summer.
*changing systems soon and will go to two tier comps, $1 or $2 depending on rating card.
Lead image c/o Kyle Peyton/Flickr, Las Vegas photo copyrights Moyan Brenn
Ashley Adams has been playing poker for 50 years and writing about it since 2000. He is the author of hundreds of articles and two books, Winning 7-Card Stud (Kensington 2003) and Winning No-Limit Hold'em (Lighthouse 2012). He is also the host of poker radio show House of Cards. See www.houseofcardsradio.com for broadcast times, stations, and podcasts.
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